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Across the board, beyond the limits of age and division of gender, the hierarchy of income or preference in style, people ride motorcycles for three reasons: to find a sense of freedom, to speed through the great outdoors, and to relieve the stress of daily monotony.

Motorcycle culture now thrives in cities such as New York, where the subway still rules as the mode of transportation that can ferry people under and away from traffic. The bikes offer a sleek alternative to the easy movement and convenient size of their pedal-powered counterparts.

Motorcycles have captivated the nation’s imagination since the first yawn of the 20th century, when cars afforded affluent families, and later restless postwar youth, the liberty of mobility. The motorcycle chassis, however, stripped the American dream to its sexiest parts: two wheels and roaring engine between the thighs- and a sense of control over how much the rider wants to risk.

The reasons for riding remain the same, but what they are riding has changed. Despite this decade’s persistently flagging economy, or perhaps because people feel the need to escape from their pockets, motorcycle ridership has been on an almost inverse incline. According to data from the motorcycle Industry Council, there are 9.6 million wannabe James Deans and Wild Ones on the road today, nearly twice as many who dreamt of the highway in the late 1990’s, and they’ve burned through more than 29 billion miles of pavement- a 40% increase since the economic bubble burst.  

Not all brands have felt the distribution of this success. Surprisingly, shops servicing Harley-Davidsons, the original king of the steel beasts, seem to have slipped into outlying areas of the city. While sport bikes, off-highway models and cruisers have been dominating 78% of the motorcycle market, ownership of traditional and touring bikes, the kind that can weather a cross-country trip like Easy Rider’s famous “search for America”, have dwindled. At least one old-school dealership, 15-year-old Pote’s Bike Shop in East Williamsburg, is feeling the bleed.

Pote Reyes, 48, keeps a tough façade- enough to have made Ed, a local Harley mechanic, think twice before entering the doors. A black awning bares skull-and-crossbones to the outside world, and dismembered engine parts, such as a pair of handlebars adorning a shelf like gilded antlers, are camouflaged within the shop’s thicket of metal. A tall covered dog cage rattles and rasps near the checkout desk.

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 An award from Full Throttle Magazine for a Kraftec Softail named “Pote’s Creation” is framed at the shop entrance. A fat gold trophy hangs out in the hallway joining the storefront and the garage. This one’s for winning a drinking game. It doesn’t look like Reyes runs a stiff shop. Reyes, covered in graying tattoos, smiles and offers me his hand.

Puerto-Rican born Pote has lived in New York for most of his life and has been fixing motorcycles since he was 18 years old. Having received no formal training, he can put an entire motorcycle together under an exact 9 hours, a feat corroborated by his boys over after-hours whiskeys at the shop. His magic is the result of determination and intuition.

“The heart of the bike is the carburetor,” he says as he explains the working parts of an engine. Even though his technical knowledge comes from parts manuals, his bikes always run, even from the time he assembled his first machine, a Harley-Davidson One Piece. Felo, a lanky guy who sometimes helps around the shop, says that although he can put a bike together in working order himself, Pote seems to be able to pull missing screws out of his pocket like a magician.

The staff varies between five and twenty people, all considered family. These guys are of the old guard who love and live for the ride. As Cindy, a petite redhead who rides with John, a man with the cataract-blue eyes, points out, this bunch developed a bond with their Harleys. They built them by hand, drove cross-country on them and slept on them through many cold nights. “It takes a lot out of you, physically,” she says.  

Pote maintains his business by selling miscellaneous parts and leather gear which he hand-tools. The winter is a better time for maintenance than traveling for sport. He sometimes sells custom bikes, although many of the ones in the shop are owned by members of his motorcycle club, a 50-person unit called “The Forbidden Ones”.  He also houses other people’s bikes inside the shop, such as the small purple thing belonging to a woman who is suffering from terminal cancer. She’s become too ill to travel, but has been keeping her baby in the shop for the past three years.

This year the shop came dangerously close to closing, a result, according to Pote, of rent that has become too high and customers who are moving farther away with few new ones in the neighborhood to replace them. Still, he says he can’t do better than he is. “We treat the customers good and give them good service,” he shrugs. “If the customers don’t complain, then you’re doing well.” They also sell a great line of high-end Snap-On tools.

Pote is known locally as someone with a loyal group of regulars. The store is held together by a community that has been attending his part swaps and block parties for years. Sometimes so many riders show up from all over the city and upstate, he says, that the street lodging the shop has to be closed down. Pote also sponsors mass rides for Toys for Tots, fundraisers for the local Wyckoff hospital and Pampers diaper runs. The guys hanging out at the shop nod enthusiastically when their boss explains his charity work. 

“We ride for the kids, man. Last Sunday, we had almost two thousand bikes riding up from Myrtle Avenue to Woodhaven,” Pote recounts, taking the blanket off the demon dog cage. Revealed inside are two tiny Yorkies, running around the corners of their box and irritating one another.

The rent this month nearly squashed Pote’s shop, but he paid it off by selling his beloved truck. He shakes it off with a such-is-life attitude. “I don’t want to close my shop, man. I’m 48 years old. What am I going to do, get a job? This is my life.”

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Motorcycle business is still business, and the success of a brand or dealership depends on its ability to intuit customer’s changing desires. Riders are young once again, but they are more affluent now, yet thriftier, than their parents were when they bought their first bikes in the ‘60s or ‘70s. Gen X and Y is beginning to take its bikes to cramped city streets, having “discovered” them as an urban alternative to the heavy cost of keeping a car.   

“There’s a generational shift going on,” says Tim Buche, President of the Motorcycle Industry Council, “And in many ways, New York is a key spot.”  

Baby boomers on bikes outnumbered their grandkids 4:1 as recently as 2003. According to MIC research, that ratio was 2:1 by 2008. “In 2009, the median age of motorcyclists dropped for the first time in 19 years,” Buche continues. “In 2011, ridership was equal.”

Today, as before, people ride for style, but they need the bike to look good, be storable, and be able to weave in and out of traffic. Buche himself prefers to ride sport bikes. There are thriving motorcycle shops in the city, but what are they doing that Pote’s loyalty-driven, bare-bones approach lacks? Or is the Harley-Davidson- the original “bad to the bone” motorcycle, the original, iconic Captain America- and its fans simply aging?

Adam Barker, 30, has been living in Williamsburg for roughly two years. He has been riding for 5 years and loves it; he “would ride anything.” Barker’s own bike was a Triumph Speed Triple, a classic sports bike. He liked it for its character and streamlined appeal, giving it the appearance of an aerodynamic steampunk dragon. “It’s a stylish motorcycle,” he acknowledges proudly. “I like being seen on it, to be honest.”

He’s only ridden a Harley once.  “Harleys are most popular with people who have been riding their entire lives,” observes Barker. “It’ often what their dads rode, and it’s what they get when they ride for the first time in their older years.”  

All of Adam Barker’s five roommates ride or race, most of them professionally- a strong hub of dedicated young riders who keep at least 10 motorcycles in the building’s parking lot at all times. They look for shops where they can safely leave their vehicle and which can give them the tools and space to do most of their own repairs.

For this, they come to Motorgrrl, which according to many changed the local motorcycle business. It is also the first female-owned garage in the area.

Valerie Figarella has been spreading “good motorcycle juju” for 8 years. Located off the Bedford hub on the L train, Motorgrrl draws customers with budgets of various depths. Val, a petite firecracker in a newsboy hat, used to be a corporate computer programmer and runs a tight ship.

What Motorgrrl has done- and this has been echoed by nearly everyone interviewed for this article- has been to bring a “new” bike culture to Brooklyn. From the wrought-iron gate that gives passerby a peek at the menagerie of Japanese and Italian automobiles in the garage to the Technicolor pop-art display of beetle-like bucket helmets arranged on the inside wall, the shop looks as hip as its clientele.

It’s definitely a draw for the shop’s demographic, an age group ranging between college kids and the salt-and-peppers, although there are a few who have been riding since Death Race 2000 slammed into theaters. The business model is a community environment and a DIY repair spot, a place with style and lifts, compressors and parts washers- a new outlook for riders who, despite knowing how to fix their own technical issues, are often put off from owning their engines by the cost of parking and the danger of not having a reliable storage space. 

Motorgrrl is digital, too, having embraced social networking as a way to connect with customers and reach out to moto-culture junkies: the shop’s linked up to Facebook, Twitter, and even a Tumblr page featuring vintage photographs of men and women behaving badly.

“Researching the competition is like a doctor researching other offices- some specialize in pediatrics, some do full checkups,” she explains. She personally sees a lot of Ducatis, Hondas, Suzukis and Kawasakis, two-stroke engines built for rapid acceleration.

“Harleys come with a stigma of being ‘badass’ and successful,” she says.  But racing bikes, such as vintage Triumphs and Desmosedichis, are analogous to a Porsche or an Aston-Martin. “If you’re a classic cat, you’ll probably like old-school race bikes.” Used wheels are also cheaper and many owners are fascinated by the process of restoring their performance and aesthetics.

Figarella herself prefers racing bikes for their easy maintenance and lower price points. She purchased her first, a Yamaha 52 XT-250, when she was in college, having gotten it from someone who needed money to fuel a journey to Alaska. She now owns a Daytona and services BMW’s.

The garage now has 21 spaces, always mostly full. That Motorgrrl has done so well not just against the economy, but also physically close to local legends such as Indian Larry’s, is a testament to determination and a good sense of business and style.

At Pote’s, Cindy who rides with John tells me that Val is “one hell of a lady.”

“And it really means something that she is a woman,” Cindy explains. “As someone who has been in the biking world for decades, I know true bikers who would never give the time of day to a female mechanic. But many trust Val. And she’s had to work harder than anyone else to get there.”

Val’s toughness is earned, but the visual toughness of being on a motorcycle, of metal, leather and vibrating parts, is still a hot selling point. The wildly successful New York-based Deth Killers brand has been deliberately built on the legend of the actual DK motorcycle club, hot 20-something hooligans who post videos of themselves gunning through flames and abducting fashion models.

The Deth Killers sell their line of asphalt-resistant jeans in Soho, next to Saturday’s Surf Shop, a café that sells surfing gear to the hip and landlocked.

Pockets of people nostalgic for riding’s dirty days still congregate in order to keep vintage style alive. Corinna Mantlo holds a weekly screening of B-movie motorcycle flicks out of the back room at Otto’s Shrunken Head, a post-punk tiki bar in the East Village. The film buff says that now, as always, people love the rabble-rousing, rebel outlaw face of biking, and style is a way to manifest this image.

Mantlo, 31, grew up in Manhattan, raised on the stories her and her friend’s fathers told of their adventures in the 70s.

“We grew up with those stories,” she recalls. “It wasn’t just about riding and getting drunk. It was about art and trips and being broke and learning how to fix things yourself.” She said that as city kids, none of her friends owned cars, but as soon as they were able to pool together the several hundred bucks to go to motorcycle safety school, they jumped right on the seat. 

The images of guys in the 1950’s and 60’s “smoking a cigarette and looking great next to a British bike” were real to these kids, but outside of the aesthetic allure, it was also an accessible hobby. They discovered a bike-centric Manhattan, a secret since noticed by many.

Mantlo, who keeps an eye on culture, views the popularity of Japanese and British racers more as a result of practicality than an abandonment of values. While she agrees that choppers are no longer the norm, she says it may be more about a price point that allows people, like the ones who are just beginning to grow their paychecks, to pick up a ride for about $1200 and feel the same rush afforded by any kind of status bike.

Her favorite move, The Wild Ones, is timeless because “speaks to our generation and city kids coming from broken homes.” For her, as it is for all riders, motorcycles are a means to escape the claustrophobia that inevitably settles into the soul from the city, a way “to just be able to split.”  

In the world of 3-D action flicks, people ride expensive streamlined vehicles and look increasingly bionic, but we agree that “whether it was the Hell’s Angels in the 1960’s or today, it’s still about the same camaraderie.”

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For Doomtree, Minneapolis’s steadfast hip-hop collective, kings and thrones give way to a powerful wall of individual voices winging rhymes and toothy lyrics. Democratically owned, manned and managed by its eight emcees and DJ’s, one of the truly exceptional things about this label is its dedication to effectively breaking ground not only in making music, but also in the business of producing it.
Each member commands his or her own individual style, discography, and fan base, but is a distinctly vital limb of Doomtree, the new model for the all-inclusive, do-it-yourself record label. While not everyone in the team comes from an expected hip-hop background, Doomtree’s dedicated fans, numbering in the tens of thousands, respect the group’s commitment to one another and to building their own house from the ground up.
With the release of Sims’ EP “Wildlife”, the rapper’s second CD this year; Dessa’s melodic, mythology-inspired new album “Castor: The Twin”; and the upcoming November release of the collaborative “No Kings”, 2011 was a flurry of creative activity for the motley group, which consists of P.O.S, Dessa, Sims, Lazerbeak, PaperTiger, Cecil Otter, Mike Mictlan, and their indispensable intern Ander Other.
Backstage at Doomtree’s CMJ show at Brooklyn’s Knitting Factory, MotherThunder caught up with emcees P.O.S, Sims, and Dessa about following their own driving forces while keeping true to the success of the Doomtree crew.

P.O.S

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MotherThunder: Most recording artists today have to be involved in their own label and in the process of creating their albums. What makes Doomtree successful?
P.O.S: Is it successful? (laughs)
MT: Well, what is the measure of success for a label?

P.O.S: I don’t know; I really don’t. I know that we work really hard to not have to work normal jobs, or to work normal jobs as minimally as possible. That is my personal bar of success for being a rapper: the fact that I don’t have to do anything except for make songs. I don’t make much money, and I don’t think that I have a better job, necessarily, when it comes to hours. Because in order to be self-employed, you have to work almost all the time, but I like my job. I can call it success as long as I don’t have to do anything else. I don’t know if it’s true for everyone in Doomtree.

MT: I follow Doomtree’s website, Twitter feeds, and Facebook page, and it’s obvious that you’re great at sending out your message. Do you have a team to help you with this, or do you do it all yourself? P.O.S: Everything that we do is us, pretty much. It’s seven of us and Ander and a couple other people who help with different things here and there, but no real plan. We’ve been doing this for almost 10 years now and every year we refine what we did the year before, with no map or a plan.

MT: You each have your own specific style, you all make your own records; then you have the False Hopes albums, and now, altogether, “No Kings”. How is the process different for creating each one?P.O.S: That’s really it, The False Hopes stuff (came) before mixtapes were popular. It was a short mixtape trying to figure out what we were working on while working on solo records. Doomtree’s records are all seven of us collaborating. We only do that once in a while, and all the years in between we make solo records, with each other and with each other’s help, and with each other’s personal ear and taste in mind. We all like working with each other; we’re all friends who respect each other’s musical tastes. That’s the best part about it.

MT: Do you think it’s harder to work with your friends or alone?
P.O.S: I’ve never not worked with my friends so I have nothing to measure it against. It’s always hard to work.

MT: That, everyone can understand. When you write an album, are you trying to reach a specific audience or do you write for yourself?
P.O.S: A little bit of both. If we’re talking about a P.O.S record, I write almost entirely for me. But I’m aware at this point that a lot of people are going to hear it, and that some people are going to pay attention to the stuff I say. So I have to put the way that I feel about things into it; I never liked songs that didn’t mean anything or that didn’t make sense. I want everything to resonate in some way. It’s music the way that I like to hear it.

MT: You have a huge fan base in (hometown) Minneapolis. Where do you get the best response outside of Minnesota?
P.O.S: It depends on who I’m on tour with. Pretty much every city has figured out a little bit about us at this point.

MT: How about internationally?
P.O.S: I’ve done a couple tours through the UK, Australia, and Europe.
MT: Tell me a little bit about The Four Fists. P.O.S: The Four Fists is me with Astronautalis, and it’s one of those things where we’ve known each other since 2004 and always wanted to work together, and gotten to be really good friends over time. We really wanted to work, and we were trying to figure out something that would be unique from what we normally do, not just blending our stuff together, so we picked themes and we started reading short stories. The first batch of stories was written by a St. Paul writer named F. Scott Fitzgerald. It’s coming out sometime next year.

MT: “No Kings” is coming out after the release of Kanye and Jay-Z’s latest album, “Watch the Throne”, we’re now in the throes of Occupy Wall Street, and The Four Fists is based off the work of a very iconic American writer. Is there a theme to this record, or did it come together this way by accident?
P.O.S: I don’t know if it is by accident, or according to a specific theme. We’ve been talking down to people trying to rule us since the beginning of our crew; it’s been almost 10 years that we’ve been making little references to kings dying. And Occupy Wall Street; that was only a matter of time too, because due to the nature of money, it’s just bound to pile on top of itself until everyone feels broken by it.

SIMS

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M.T: Does the release of “No Kings” have anything to do with the coinciding release of “Watch the Throne” and the momentum of Occupy Wall Street? Is there a purpose to the title?
Sims: There is, but it has nothing to do with neither Occupy Wall Street nor Watch the Throne. If you go back through the catalogue of Doomtree songs, the idea of “no kings” or the actual words “no kings”, or a similar amalgamation of these words appears all the way back to 2004.
So this is something that’s been ingrained in our belief system as people, and who we are as people comes through our music naturally. I appreciate both those movements, but not enough to speak on them. I’ll leave those topics to people who know enough to speak about them, and I will continue to speak about what I know.

M.T: When you came together as Doomtree, did you start out as a unit or as separate artists?
Sims: We were all solo artists, and we were all struggling. In many ways, we’re still struggling. But in many ways, it’s a different struggle, a different set of dues entirely. So we were all sort of struggling along and decided to band together to accomplish the goals that we could, whether something as simple as “I can give a show and you can give a show”, and “if we put all of our money together, we could get a record out and you can get your record out”.
The idea was to form a sort of artist co-op, primarily because no one would deal with us. No one would give us shows and no one would certainly put out our records at the time. We are a label by choice, because we don’t want to put records out with anyone else. Because we’re doing fine.

MT: Do you ever want to expand Doomtree, or do you feel that you’re working with the people you want to be working with?
Sims: We want to expand, but it’s all about sustainable growth. So if we got a loan for a million dollars, we’re not sure we’d know what to do with that money. We’ve never taken a loan throughout our entire history. We’ve done everything we wanted to do by the revenue generated by the music that we create. Growth is good.

MT: In an age when many artists work off independent labels or create their own music, do you feel like there is a certain metric of success that other labels don’t have, or haven’t figured out yet?
Sims: I mean, I feel like we’re a good model for the idea that you can do it. I think there are people who do it better than us, and I think there are people who do it worse than us, but I don’t care to even think about who’s doing better or worse, because it’s all irrelevant; it’s luck and it’s the people that you reach with song. All that (other) stuff is sort of superfluous parts of the music industry.
I think the idea that you can create your own destiny is the idea. We’re going to work hard on both making good songs and working hard on how we put those songs out, and work hard once those songs are out to continue to let people know that they are out, and to continue touring; we’re going to do all this stuff on a shoestring budget, and I think that the only model that we’re good for is that you have the ability to do it if you’ve got the chops.

MT: That’s a very inspiring message! Sims: But if you’ve got the chops, so don’t just “do it” (laughs).

MT: What now? Now you’re trying to discourage your fan base? Sims: Yeah! I am trying to discourage people. I’m trying to say get your fucking music right before you try to present it to the world. Spend some time with your craft; really work on your music. I think that’s the biggest part of what we did. We’re ten years deep in owning this label, and we’re now starting to come onto the national scene. Because we fucking sucked when we started, straight up! And now we’re starting to get better at what we’re doing, because we work really hard at creating better music every time.

MT: But you didn’t believe that you sucked at the beginning, did you?
Sims: No, but it’s pretty obvious to know when you suck. It really is.

MT: Not if you’re doing work that is, without lying to yourself, to the best of your ability.
Sims: Yeah, but your ability may just be shitty. That’s the bottom line. Your ability might not be there, you might not be talented, or you might be talented, but you might not be living up to your potential. You might be giving it your all, but your all may is just not there yet. What I’m saying is to be critical of your own music, and work really hard at making that music as good as it can be.
And don’t spend all of your time worrying about where you’re at as far as numbers go: record sales, attendance, money generated, all that stuff doesn’t f*cking matter. Make your music perfect, and then put it out to the world. Don’t be afraid to fall on your face a bunch of times. None of us have lived up to our potential yet, that’s all I’m saying.

DESSA

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MT: Do you feel like you work better as a team, or that at times you need to break off into your own music projects?
Dessa: Doomtree has been really good about providing each artist room to be a solo recording artist and to be a member of Doomtree. On the whole, we’ve done a good job of making it an “and” scenario instead of an “either/or” scenario.

MT: Each Doomtree member has an individual style: you and Cecil Otter are very literary; POS has that spark, etc. Do you think that this variety of feeling and nuance speaks to your fans? Dessa: I think that people who aren’t members of Doomtree are better commentators on that. It’s like trying to guess how you’re perceived when you walk into a room. I can make some guesses about the assumptions that people make, rightly or wrongly, but as a member of the collective I think my primary concern is making good stuff, working hard to promote the music that the guys make, and worrying less about exactly why it would appeal to fans, instead trusting that our art will find a place in the wider world.

MT: When writing together, do you ever have a sense of yourself trying to guard your own voice- you’re the only woman in the group, for example, somebody else is coming from a rap background, and someone else has been doing this for a very long time- or do you forget all this and write in a collective voice?
Dessa: I couldn’t speak for all the guys, but I think we worry more about trying to make fresh and authentic stuff, and if we’re at all aware of the caricature that we fill in DT, we’d be more interested in expanding out of that role than making sure that we fit into it. So if somebody says, “Oh, she’s that chick that writes soft, introspective stuff”, I’d be tempted to write a song to prove that I’m more than that.

MT: Did you siphon different inspiration into “Castor” than you did into “No Kings”?
Dessa: Yeah. My most recent record, “Castor: The Twin”, is 11 songs long, and 10 of them are ambitious musical rearrangements of songs that had been released earlier. That album was actually born out of a West Coast tour that we did with a live band, and when we came back, we found that the live songs we did were really different from the ones that had been recorded.
So we found that for the stand-up bass, the guitar, for grand piano and strings and a live drummer, we’d rearranged a lot of the production than we were initially interpreting. So we made that record because in part, showgoers said “Hey, I really like this version; do you have this anywhere?” And it’s happened enough times that I said, “We should go make that”. So the band and I visited the studio for a week and recorded those new versions.

MT: Do you want to spend more time in the future pursuing that kind of musicality, or now have the urge to make something more forceful?
Dessa: I don’t know that they’re diametrically opposed, but soft, organic stuff tends to lead to mellow, melodic lyrics, and hard, banging production leads to edgier rap. But I don’t think that the two need be mutually exclusive, so for my next record, instead of choosing a direction to go towards, I just like to consider my palate expanded.
When sitting down to write any one song, I can say, “Would an 808 be good on this song? Would a double snare be good on this song? Would a clarinet, or a field snare, or orchestral drum or vibraphone be good on this song?” From the past year of working with live instrumentalists, I now know what those sounds can do.

MT: You are the latest member of Doomtree, correct?
Dessa: Yes, Sims and I joined the latest; six years ago.

MT: And do you ever feel like things fall into place the way the way they are supposed to?
Dessa: Let’s just say, I thought I would be a professor.

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ticket-stubs_0I’m not expecting to write tonight. It’s 10 pm on a Friday and I’m taking my bike out for a 50-mile spin despairingly early the next morning. Which is why I’m at my local watering hole, using free Wi-Fi and nursing a beer. I don’t pay attention at first to the young, blonde kid on the next bar stool, but he’s drawn to my monitor-illuminated face like a drunk moth and starts up a conversation. We banter for a few minutes; I ask where he’s from and what he does. I can tell he is not from New York. His name is Daniel, and he tells me that he and his buddy- the sullen one watching the TV- are professional ticket scalpers. Whether he’s weaving a very tall tale or bragging about his line of work, I need to hear his story:

Mother Thunder: How does one get into the business of scalping tickets?

Daniel: Somebody brings you in- it kinda happens on accident. For me, it was my brother, while we were working on a farm in Wisconsin.

He told me to pack up a bag of clothes and move to Chicago with him, where he lived. He said, “I’ll show you how to work and make money. Stay with me for a month, and we’ll see what happens. If after a month you don’t make any cash, you can go back home.”

MT: What happened in Chicago?

D: I slept on his floor. He took me to work with him. He said that all I have to do is act naturally.

MT: Which venues did you work? Did you start out small?

I started at Wrigley Field. It’s like a national event; people come from all over the world to see it. When tourists come to Chicago, they go see the Sears Tower, the Magnificent Mile, and Wrigley Field. I got put right out on the street for one of the biggest events in the country. And from then on, you learn how to hustle. There’s definitely a learning curve to it. I went from chopping wood and feeding animals, and all of a sudden I needed to learn how to feel people out and become a salesman.

MT: Did you run into any trouble?

D: Not in Wrigley. But yes, you get locked up sometime. You either get a warning, a fine, or you get locked up for no more than 12 hours.

MT: You said that you travel with your friend. How did you meet?

D: A lot of debauchery happened. I don’t even remember how I met him…(Aside to friend Adam) Might as well have known you my whole life, bro.

MT: Is it easier to work in teams or alone?

D: It’s easier to work in a team- you can have one person talking to the customer and the other handling the money. Plus, when you’re on the road, you can share expenses.

MT: How do you get people to trust you?

D: I don’t screw with people’s money. There are guys who sell fake tickets, or “blinkers”- they don’t care who they screw. I’m the most honest person you can meet. I walk my customers to the doors and see them in. If anything’s wrong with the ticket, I either buy them another one or refund them. You don’t have to trust me, but you’ll get a signed receipt from me. It’s a dirtier side of life than most people are used to, but I don’t steal from people. I’m not a thief. Today at Yankee Stadium, I walked 3 people to the door. I spent an hour of my time making them comfortable when I could have been making more money.

MT: Have you seen a loss in business with the economic downturn?

D: Yeah, it’s terrible. I used to buy for $50 and sell for $150. But the margins have gone down, and it means you just have to work a little harder.

MT: Do you have a plan when you move from city to city?

D: No! For example, I can’t go to Washington and do the nationals. They’ve lost 100 games. You go where there’s winning baseball and high profile teams, international events. Like, the U2 show is a big, international event. You go online and find cities where you’ll make a profit.

MT: How often do you work?

D: Every single day of my life. There’s always something going on somewhere. Any day I’m not doing something, I feel like I have to get up and find the action.

MT: What’s the record number of cities you’ve traveled between in one stretch?

D: In a day, I’ve driven from Chicago straight to Miami. I’ve driven from Chicago to New Orleans. You can only do so much in a day. I’ve done 3 month stretches where I’ve gone New York, Boston, Miami, out to Phoenix, San Diego. I’ve gone coast-to-coast in a few days and back again.

MT: Do you plan on expanding your business out of the country?

D: I’ve lived in Japan for a few months, but I didn’t work. Actually, you could do that in Japan. They like their baseball over there.

MT: Do you ever take vacations?

D: My whole life is a vacation! Look what I do. I get to lay in the sun in the winter, go to huge events all over the nation. Plus, no one tells me what to do. You only have yourself to blame if something goes wrong.

MT: Are there any icons in the business?

D: No names that you’d recognize, but if you were in the business you’d know. There are definitely some legends in the business. Anything you can learn, you learn by experience. I went to school twice, once for psychology and once for business. But I got good by working.

MT: Do your friends know what you do?

D: Yeah, they do. Some of them are really offended by it. I grew up in a small town, and they can be offended by my fast-talking. But they also get starry-eyed when I tell them I live in Chicago. Some of the stories I tell, they don’t believe them. And I don’t even tell them the half of what’s going on. Some really crazy shit will happen with what I do. I’ve sold tickets to celebrities…. sports stars… you get to meet all sorts of people. Go backstage at all sorts of events.

(Adam, the friend, interjects with a laugh: “But, really, we’re in real estate”. Daniel then pulls out his phone and shows me his pictures of dozens of stadiums and concerts he’s visited from the beginning of 9/2009 to now, the end of the month. Some of them are the same concert in different parts of the country. He answers me too clearly, too earnestly. He looks and talks like a street-smart kid; definitely not real-estate salesman material. My instinct says that he’s not bluffing.) Do you believe me now?

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floydAs the marketing mix mantra of “Product, Price, Place, Promotion” emits is monotone sales pitch, guerilla marketing is the caffeinated antidote to our advertising doldrums. It is imaginative, experimental promotion; it’s the guy dressed in a gorilla suit handing out restaurant menus in front of a ramen restaurant. It’s also how Cunning, a London-based creative ad agency, won fame while working for FHM Magazine in 1999: it projected an image of centerfold Gale Porter, towering in her naked Amazonian glory, onto the Houses of Parliament in London.

Cunning now has offices in New York, where I meet Head Creative Bloke (his official title) Floyd Hayes. Floyd is no sales shark. On the contrary, he is sincere and curious. His side projects include “Twipple” (the “world’s kindest Twitter feed”) and Seksi Spam Buttons, pins printed with hilariously misspelled taglines from pornographic spam e-mails (sales profits go to the Sexuality Information & Education Council of the US). Nothing seems to be off-limits in this creative space.

As Hayes shows me around the Cunning office,  I note the staff’s meticulously arranged Smurf action-figure collection and the basketball-headed statues created for L’Oreal Vive displayed near the foosball table.

Hayes adeptly navigates the untested terrain of guerrilla advertising. He’s been filmed and for documentaries about marketing and widely quoted. I repeat one such phrase to Mr. Hayes: “those who don’t risk anything risk much more”. He answers that the quote is relevant and eloquent- but he must have dropped it whilst hung over. Thus, I sit Floyd Hayes down to learn about the unconventional limb of an old profession.

Motherthunder.Com: How long have you been at Cunning ?

Floyd Hayes: I’ve been at Cunning for eleven years, and I joined the company as the first employee in 1998. I joined with Anna Carloss in the London office.

We used to work out of her garage (he pronounces it “gAh-rahj”, then chuckles and re-pronounces it “ga-rAjh”, the American way). And that’s where it developed.

I moved to the States in 2004, to start up with Mark (Voysey) at Cunning New York.

So yeah, it’s been quite a long ride.

MT: Is the marketing landscape different here in New York than it is in London? From a bird’s-eye view, they are both cities with similar viewpoints.

FH: I think there’s more of the same as there is that is different, really. London likes to think of itself as being more creative than New York.

There has always been this rivalry between the financial centers, the fashion groups, the graffiti groups, the MC’s, the rappers, and the urban culture; and it’s very strong in the advertising communication industry as well.

England’s certainly more irreverent. They’ve got a cheeky sense of humor- and the word “cheeky” is used a lot more in the U.K than it is in the states. The Brits aren’t as afraid of litigation, political correctness; every ad we do doesn’t have to have every single race in it that’s on the face of the planet.

But that’s not to say that British advertising is insensitive to race and cultural issues. It’s a very multicultural city; there are 300 languages spoken in London alone.

I think it can be a little more sexual; a little more edgy in its humor, its imagery. The humor is just a little more subtle. And those are the differences I saw here. I like the New York advertising scene: it’s quite switched-on, culturally.

It’s very brave. People aren’t afraid to think big here. I think that’s part of the American DNA; that “can-do” spirit, the not-being-afraid to move forward with exciting, big ideas. On occasion….

MT: How big?

FH: Well, the big agencies here, they’re not afraid to push their ideas out. You know, anything from Subservient Chicken down to Microsoft launching Windows, originally, by bathing it in different projected lights.

Anything seems possible, if the budget and the will is there to do it. I like that sense of horizon, which allows me to think in such broad terms.

MT:Take me through the process of taking a big idea from the drawing board and making it a reality. How many different people, steps, and materials are involved?

FH: There’s broadly 10 steps. I won’t go through them 1-10, but essentially it’s broken down into these areas:

At the beginning, we meet for a brief with the client. Usually the client has a brief written out, or we encourage them to fill out our brief, which is a little different. We’re looking at business issues, what they want to achieve, their advertising, their strategy, their planning, what kind of media they want to use.

What kind of resources do we have? Do they have a website already? Is there a celebrity involved? Do they want a sample? You know, what their goals are, how we measure those goals, and should we reach them- that’s the briefing part.

From there, we get into a kind of inspirational area which is part research and development. We look at the competitive set, we look at other people’s strategies and where we can find a space to communicate them- somewhere it won’t be full of competitive clutter.

We try to get excited, because the main thing is to get your imagination turned on. Often, clients give you a brief that’s like a tax return. There’s a lot of text and statistics. It’s my job as creative director to translate that into something that creative minds are going to really open up to, find exciting, flourish, and develop ideas.

Research and development just checks on what (the client’s) done before. Does this client like exciting advertising, or do they like television ads, for example? Then we have to figure out ways to make them feel comfortable in non-traditional terms. From there, we then do brainstorms.

We have very free-form brainstorms here, but like any other company we have the whiteboard up. We encourage everyone in the company to work on it, not just the creative side. So everyone from the secretary to the CEO will have the brief and will be listened to, as much as anyone else, for ideas and insights.

From there, we have solo brainstorming sessions, where people just go away and do what they need to do. Then we come together and reality-check all the ideas against the brief. So if the brief says, “We’ll never use the color blue”, and if one of the ideas uses the color blue, it’s out. Example. Bad example. Dreadful example.

We just make sure it’s tied together, it’s feasible, it’s affordable from a resource point of view, and that the tonality of the idea fits whatever the brand’s trying to achieve.

And then, we create presentation decks, which can be a keynote, a PowerPoint, theater, or it could be just sketches, or it could be a Word document. However we just feel right at the time, and we gauge what particular clients like to either see or read or hear or feel or understand.

MT: Do you stand by your quote: “Companies that don’t risk anything risk much more.” Do you think that’s true across the industry, or do you think it’s mostly young companies like Cunning that aren’t afraid to take risks?

FH: I think it’s true not only for companies, but it’s true for people as well. If your reason for being- as a company or as a person- is just to coast and not to take risks, make some money and that’s your lot, then you’re not really reaching your potential.

And I think that’s a great shame. Especially when I see companies that have wonderful legacies and really intelligent people working for them, and yet there is some kind of “community think” group which holds back ideas that could be a little more interesting or brave.

MT:Sorry: “community think”. Would you capitalize those words; I mean: is that an actual group or a phrase?

FH: I guess I meant “groupthink”. I often see this in corporates. There’ll be 15 people involved in any decision. Often, decisions aren’t made, or if they’re made, they’re made far too late.

I think that in the smaller companies, you have one or two visionaries, and someone who can actually sign a checkbook and make decisions. They have to be more nimble, and that’s certainly more work.

Companies that have that mindset, think of them as the “Apples” of the world…Netflix… people that are creating categories and establishing new rules. I think marketing and communications can be looked at the same way, and I find that exciting.

MT: New markets are being created now, with products that are completely groundbreaking. So I agree. Recall the “mustachioed Marlboro man” that you would see in ‘70s magazine ads in Playboy. Do you think he’s still out there? Is there a type of behemoth company that goes for that image versus a fresher approach?

FH: There is indeed, and I won’t name names, but I can see them from this window. They’re a very well-established company- one of the biggest in the world- and in the top 5. They have an incredible amount of money.

They have large global corporate clients, and their advertising is essentially information-based, product-short, with a bit of copy. And that’s all these clients want. And that’s what they pay this company for.

So those kinds of companies still exist, and they still serve a function, and they still are healthy businesses. They’ll probably always be around, which is great for us because we can nip in through the gaps and talk to clients who would like to change with the times and talk the language of their audience.

I think they’ll exist side-by-side in the way radio still exists with television and television still exists with the internet. One new paradigm of thinking doesn’t necessarily mean it deletes the paradigm before it; does that make sense?

MT:Absolutely! Let’s go into specifics. What was the first idea you brought to the table, and was it accepted?

FH: Oh, gosh… at Cunning, specifically, I put together hundreds of ideas beforehand when I was in a band, and I used to promote bands and DJ’s and all sorts of things.

I was into “guerilla marketing” before I even knew it was guerilla marketing. We just wanted to be famous and had no money!

So, specifically at Cunning- yeah, I remember the first brief I worked on, and I was very green. But it was very exciting; it was for a magazine called “Bizarre”, which had weird stuff in it. Very different magazine.

…Kind of gross stuff; a little sexy. Very “out-there” pictures and thoughts and things.

MT: This was back in the U.K?

FH: Yeah, this was back in the U.K. They liked icky stuff, so my very first idea was incredibly icky and gross. It involved a large billboard with large Perspex letters spelling out the word “Bizarre”, and the Perspex letters were like boxes against the billboard.

I wanted to fill the entire billboard- the letters and the entire Perspex box behind it- with different-colored maggots, because they come in all kinds of colors like green, red, blue. From a distance, it would look just like the word “Bizarre”, like you would see in a magazine title. But when you got closer, you’d realize it was a living billboard.

And of course, maggots hatch into flies…It was very, very disgusting, but I thought it would get a lot of news coverage and make people go, “Oh, my God!” and talk about it in bars and so on. That was an original idea I remember amongst many others.

Then I costed it all up- I knew how much a pint of maggots went for, and the billboard space that went with it- all that kind of stuff. It was just so out there, but it certainly got me a phone call. I went down for an interview, and I got the job.

That (the maggot plan) didn’t actually happen-

MT: Maybe for the best?

FH: Yeah, maybe for the best. You can have that one. The idea that did happen was for a channel (in the U.K) called Channel 5, and they bought the rights to air the classic Lassie series. They wanted some sort of PR stunt to celebrate this and get it in the papers. The idea was very simple: we brought Lassie over from the States as if she was Madonna.

So we had a private jet, security detail, a sexy publicist with her and she went to all the hotels, and went jogging in Hyde Park.

She did all the sorts of things that major celebrities do in London: go to the Waldorf, the Ivy Club. We took Lassie around, and it was successful. It got PR coverage and coverage from news on TV.

We eventually got a phone call from the Houses of Parliament. This guy was furious because he thought we’d brought the dog from the States. At the time, there was a big row about passports for pets.

Britain’s very careful about animals coming in the country because we don’t have rabies, whereas continental Europe does. We don’t want it anywhere near our country, so they (foreign pets) are quarantined for six months. It’s a really involved process.

This story was happening in the news at the same time Lassie was coming over, so we made a segway for the two stories. We told this member of Parliament, “relax, because this dog wasn’t really from America. We sort of snuck her in from down the road in London and made the whole thing up”.

We only hired the jet for, like, half an hour. It was only as much as we could afford to hire it and have it stand around, take a picture and open the door. And that was it- don’t believe everything you read!

MT: Is there a certain style or media in which you prefer to work? Or do you like to mix everything up?

FH: I do, you know. Cunning is a group where we talk about being “solution-neutral”, meaning we believe there’s no one channel that answers a creative brief from a client. Our logo is all different because we like to say every single brief we get, we approach completely fresh.

We’re media-agnostic, so we don’t sell a media channel to a client because we make money on it. Now if you go to Madison Avenue, they’ll tell you otherwise, but they are lying.

They’ll try to sell a client the channel that makes them the most money. So if they specialize in TV production, they will sell TV ads. If they sell outdoor media space, then that will be the top of their deck.

Cunning doesn’t make any money from any media channel in particular. It makes no difference to us if we do a clothing line; or we do something online; or we do a billboard, or an event; viral or Twitter campaign with social media; publicity stunt; or even just a basic ad. We look at the solution that is perfect for the specific media issue at hand.

But what do I like the most? I like very simple ideas that you can just look at and “get” immediately. Some very complex, multi-channel, strategically-led, deep concepts are really intellectually pleasing to work on. But personally, I like to be able to look at a guerrilla ad or a piece of print and have it make me smile.

I want to learn something from it. I want it, in some way or another, be of some use to me whether it gives me something funny and new to say to my friends, or whether the actual media itself has some utility to it. For example, it’s like a coffee-cup holder, that has utility: stops your fingers getting burnt.

What I hate is irrelevant adverts shouting at me in a dictatorial manner, which is how 90% of advertising works. They just buy as much space as they can afford, repeat a message to anyone who’s in the area. I don’t want to know about Ugg shoes or anything else that’s not specific to my needs and desires. People call it “urban spam”, and I think with good reason.

I think there’s a lot less of it here in New York, because it’s easier to tune out. You’re not stuck behind the wheel of your car, forced to stare out at a billboard. But when I went to L.A, I was. I felt confused, because there was no value given by these enormous ads.

I would go much further than that. I wouldn’t even say “no value”. I would say it’s damaging. Information does one thing, and that’s use attention. It uses up your time; it uses up your thinking and clutters your mind.

It’s often said that the average New Yorker gets 3,000 messages a day to filter. That’s commercial sales messages like billboards, logos, e-mails. This is my life! I find it offensive that it’s cluttered with all this nonsense I don’t want to hear. It makes me quite angry.

I really dislike advertising, and I think that informs my work. I hope…to create stuff that, even if it isn’t particularly relevant to you, you can still enjoy it. If it’s a pleasant experience, a useful experience, or a learning experience, I feel much happier there than I do just grabbing attention.

I used to do a lot of that with PR stunts, and I feel like I’ve moved on. I’ve put adverts on people’s foreheads, you know what I mean? (He’s referring to the 2008 Air New Zealand campaign).

 

MT: Maybe that’s part of growing up…

FH: Yeah, of course it is, and I don’t regret any of it. But I feel now that I want to create things that have social utility. It doesn’t have to be boring, but I want my work to be a little more useful to people than just shouting messages at them from a billboard or radio or TV ad.

fhm

MT: And it shows. Marketing reaches out into every media, as you said. Where can it possibly spread now?

FH: I think I had an interview question once that asked, “What happens when non-traditional becomes traditional?” It’s like saying, “What happens when you’ve used every instrument?”

There are millions! There’s an infinite level of iteration and combination that you can use. We’ll never run out of space or ideas simply because some twenty-odd months ago Youtube didn’t even exist; something like that.

MT: Wow, you’re right. How old is the internet, like, twenty years old?

FH: If that! In ’98, we had the internet for the company, but it was barely anything. Then the dot-com boom happened in England around 1999-2000, but it didn’t reach video for being too bandwidth-hungry.

Since bandwidth has grown, technologies and therefore commercial messages have grown with it. Subservient chicken and things like that.

As new technology’s invented, obviously there will be new ways to sell to people. Look at the iPhone, and look how apps work with free downloads and sponsored content and product placement, etc, etc, etc.

MT:Is there a pattern that you’ve gotten into?

FH: No. If I find myself getting into a pattern, I consciously try to break them. I think it’s not healthy, mentally or for your imagination, to get too stuck in its ways. If one thing’s successful, that’s great and just let it be. Find something else. There are always people copying ideas, so you have to keep creating to move forward.

MT: It’s almost strange to have marketing programs in colleges, because the profession is shifting to be made “by the people, for the people”. Things that seemed obvious and set five years ago have completely turned on their heads. Would you put more stock in skill or a college degree?

FH: What happens if students don’t get their grades to go to university, and still want to follow a career in advertising? Should they despair?

Personally speaking-and I guess I’m very different than a lot of people who’ll interview at ad agencies- I know if I want to hire somebody by testing them with a creative brief.

If their imagination is unique, inquisitive, sharp, fast, and exciting, that’s all they really need. Everything else can be learned. Everything else can be bluffed, actually. I know because I’ve done it myself.

You learn enough marketing jargon- which I reject if I can- but for a while, I had to learn the professional language in order for marketing directors to say, “Oh, this guy knows what he’s talking about. He’s just said ‘integrated 360-degree thinking’” or some bull(sh*t) like that. But really, that’s not what all this is about.

It’s about good ideas- very good ideas- that are far and few between, and so are precious. I’d take someone like that over someone with a degree any day of the week.

But, I’m far from the corporate norm. If you want a job at a big corporate company as a creative director, like at a cable channel, then yes. You’ve got to be qualified as much as you possibly can be because you’re up against very fierce competition.

I think qualification can only really give you an edge, but if you don’t have soul from a creative point of view, it won’t help you at all.

Well, different strategies. Planning strategies, of course, that’s a different conversation. For me, it’s your personality and your mind that counts. I rarely look at people’s resumes, and it hasn’t really failed me yet.

MT: Finally, will you mention SeksiSpamButtons?

FH: Ah, yes, that’s looking into the future of what I want to do, as is Twipple.info. The idea of creating interesting ideas and combining it with business and branding, and also social causes: I think those 3 areas can flourish together.

Without making it sound too grand, I think they can potentially make the world a better place.

I see how much money marketing people waste on terrible print ads, dreadful sampling campaigns, and useless TV commercials that look like exactly like every other TV commercial. The sheer amount of cash is obscene.

If you took that money and still created commercial communications, it’d still be efficient but could also have a big eye towards social areas. That would be a really important step for this industry.

I know there are Corporate Social Responsibility setups and it’s a big part of almost every corporate, but if every marketing department joined with every CSR department, there could be a much brighter future for this industry.

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aesop

from 2008

Although hip-hop’s roots are deeply settled in the fertile soil of the musical underground, it has divided fans into those who prefer the time-tested style of Biggie and Tupac and those who keep their ears open to definition-defying tracks. Aesop Rock’s lyricism has caused controversy with its overwhelmingly complexity, prompting critics to claim that his words are based on style rather than content. But why would one expect anything less than both style and substance from this former Boston University art student?

Love him or hate his music, Aesop Rock’s carefully fashioned and strange lyrics bend language in ways that might be illegal in some states. In his single “Daylight”, Aesop Rock (born Ian Bavitz) admits, “I did not invent the wheel”, and then subversively adds, “I was the crooked spoke adjacent”. The rolling wheel of his music has evolved since the society-oriented fury of his earlier recordings. Each of Aesop’s tracks is a story that adds layers to his dark urban fantasy. Populated by greedy pigs and washed-out stragglers struggling to find color in the city’s grungy underbelly, the scenarios show the grotesque humor teeming within social hierarchies. Aesop Rock’s latest album, 2007’s “None Shall Pass” on the Definitive Jux label, is A.R at his best, peaking in sketches and writing in images- and earning him recognition as one of the decade’s 100 most innovative artists by betterPropoganda.com. Mother Thunder prods the wordsmith’s unusual brain about writing, growing up, and keeping the beat steady even when life changes.

Mother Thunder: There is a synesthete-like, complex quality to your lyrics, as if you are painting your rhymes. How do you process so many component lines and images into one narrative?

Aesop Rock: I don’t really know! I just overstuff everything– I tend to like it to all unwrap in layers. I’m not into making something that is only worth one spin, and for me, that means really bouncing around off of the words and trying to throw in imagery that best allows someone to get their ear pulled in. The thing that’s always done that for me is hearing how people put their words together, which words sit well next to each other and why, etc.

M.T: Your earlier songs were angry, anti-establishment bombs, now they’re like beautiful, angry storybooks. What changed? Experience? Lifestyle?

A.R: Well, I wouldn’t personally say they were “anti-establishment bombs”, but I definitely did not want to be waking up and giving someone 8 hours of my day. I think I hit a point where I was writing so much about “me, me, me”, and then you hear other music and everyone is just writing about themselves like there’s no other subject in the world. It’s interesting – people always complain about artists losing their edge, or kinda softening up as they get older… not being able to capture that urgency, etc. Meanwhile you got people who were young and active with a million things to feed off, and now they are older and settled and pulling their lives together behind the scenes.
Now, for me personally: Music works best when it’s dark, or has some sort of haunting qualities. I think it would be difficult to make songs only about me for my whole life without losing something. So I tend to let things change. If I need anger in a song, I try to describe an angry scenario. It doesn’t have to be “I’m mad, here is what I’m gonna do”.

M.T: Now, about your collaboration with the excellent group, The Weathermen. You guys are still touring even after the passing of Camu Tao (a member of the band as well as a producer). What does it take to keep a project evolving after it comes so close to shattering?

A.R: We are all close friends who take it all one day at a time.

M.T: You’re married now (to Allyson Baker, most excellent guitarist and musical collaborator) and you’ve moved to San Francisco, city that houses Haight-Ashbury. When your kids are born, could fans expect a psychedelic hip-hop fairytale album? Like an audio version of your and graphic artists Jeremy Fish’s book, “The Next Best Thing”?

A.R: Well, the word ‘psychadelic’ is throwing me off there, but a kid’s story rap album? Who knows, I wouldn’t rule it out. I tend to curse a lot and much of my subject matter is kinda adult-y, so it’d be interesting to try. I could just be true to myself like “Alright you little motherfuckers!!! Let’s rideeeee!!!!”

M.T: You are originally from New York, where the pace of life can swallow you like a wave, while San Francisco is more comfortable and human. I imagine that the tension in your earlier albums like “Float” and “Labor Days” came from the anxious buzz of your environment. How has the move affected your writing?

A.R: I like San Francisco. It does have an interesting vibe that can be conducive for creativity– it’s nice to write in a quiet city.

M.T: I imagine your brain to be 4/5ths creative rhyme making matter, with maybe 1/5th devoted to “sleep” and “eat”. How do you manage to switch that off and speak to normal people?

A.R: I don’t speak to normal people.

MotherThunder

Afterthought: Allyson Baker, Aesop Rock’s wife, is a prolific guitarist. According to her hubby, she has a new project in the works with the bass player from former San Fran band “Parchman Farms”. The new group is called “Dirty Ghosts” and their music will be up on Myspace very soon. Check ‘em out!

by Anya Khalamayzer

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